ninehertz

1. • Podge
   • Beerman says:

     Downloading isn't a victimless crime because musicians are only victims because that's the way they see themselves. They want to treat their music as a product then complain when others treat it the same. They see downloads and equate them to lost sales, which they most certainly are not. And it's only a crime because the Music Industry and the US government have made it one, it certainly isn't theft. Now they are pressurising other governments to change their laws accordingly. This is as much a political issue as a commercial one and it has as much to do with Music vs Entertainment, Art vs Money as either of them.
     
     I have never read such arse in all my life.
     
     musicians and record labels pay money to produce music. you then take that music and do not pay for it. that IS theft. you seem to be confusing a round bit of plastic (the CD) with the media it contains (the music). the CD is only the way in which the music is transported. you are stealing the music, even if you are not stealing the CD. if you do not buy the music then how do the label and the musicians recoup their costs? how do they fund their next release? how do they provide funds to tour? you cut off their development and expansion at the root leaving no ability to grow.
     
     profit is not a crime but excessive profit is questionable.
     
     as for your political argument, maybe in conspiracy circles you have a point but in the real world where advances in modern technology mean that laws need to be the same throughout the world to protect everyone to an equal level its just an updating brought on by a high profile case.
   • [12:47 on 19/04/09]
2. • Podge
   • in addition, you are confusing Share and Copy
     
     if you SHARE something then your use of it is dependant on the other person with which you are sharing.
     
     if you share a chocolate bar, you cannot use the part which the other person has used, if you share your car you cannot use it while the other person is using it.
     
     by making a COPY you allow use of the item independent of the other person.
     
     downloading is copying NOT sharing. copying brings to mind exam cheats, sharing bring to mind caring hippies. the use of the correct word is important as it gives people an indication as to which camp people should belong to. its the difference between Freedom Fighters (when they are on your side) or terrorists (when they are your enemy).
     
     music unlike many things is an expensive single product funded by a large number of smaller items. a car costs about a car to produce, a chocolate bar costs about a chocolate bar to produce. an album costs many albums to produce. you cannot liken it to many other products.
     
     copyright is not highway robbery, its a system put in place to protect some one who has created something original. unlike your backward thinking, the copyright protects the writer (from your post) from the second publisher making money and not compensating them. or if they sell their copyright to a publisher they gain their living from the sale in a lump sum instead of smaller more regular amounts.
   • [13:48 on 19/04/09]
3. • noone
   • I'm going to go and steal a chocolate bar right now , Podge has made me hungry talking about them so incessantly.
     [Edited by noone at 16:03 on 19/04/09]
   • [16:03 on 19/04/09]
4. • Beerman
   • Sorry to hear my last post was the biggest amount of arse you have ever had to take podge, here's some more you wont like to hear. The music industry isn't just the likes of Warner Music Group and all the others involved in prosecuting music lovers, it stretches down, all the way down to the small label, the small shop, the small music publication, the small band, and collectively they are controlled by the finance and infrastructure of the big corporations. They all have one thing in common, music is a product to them, used to make as much money as they can. Unfortunately a lot of the smaller labels and bands pass themselves off as underground and you can't always spot those in it for the money from those in it for music. Such bands and labels treat the underground as some sort of nursery to grow using the support of music lovers before expanding into mainstream commerce and kissing everybody who got suckered by them goodbye. They are like cuckoos in the nest, spreading the music industry's propaganda, because they are part of that commercial beast.
     
     It isn't theft because the owner still has use of the original property.
     
     Whether the music is the product or not, and I would argue it was not, no more than the design of a car is the product, is largely irrelevant as there is no theft.
     
     Whether something is shared, like listening to a cd together, or copied and shared, in order to listen to it separately, the process is still one of sharing. The music industry don't want it called sharing because sharing is a good thing. No doubt as they go further into decline they won't shed jobs, they will modernise.
     
     
   • [17:37 on 19/04/09]
5. • Podge
   • you are correct, that is another load of toss. with each post you reveal your self to be more and more of a fool.
     
     come spend a day with either my self or Chris from SD, we'll show you how much time and money from our own pocket we put into our releases and how your conspiracy led ideas are all to cock.
     
     you still cant answer any of the questions I posed in earlier posts
     
     how can you not define music as a product, if it is not a product what is it?
     
     how can you say that it is not theft that you take something that you have not paid for?
     
     are you trying to say that anything that is created should be free to anyone and everyone?
     
     as I said you are unable to distinguish between audio as a product and the physical storage media or music as a CD and music as a master. it can cost thousands of pounds just to press a CD. if one copy is leaked and then everyone copies (or shares as you like to call it) that single copy, who is going to pay the rest of the costs?
     
     you see record labels as bad because they make money with no other justification. but that money is partial used to fund other projects. when Mammoth went under Fu Manchu had to pull all their Europe tour dates as they couldn't afford to pay for it them selves.
     
     your argument is full of holes that you try to patch up by saying the music industry is bad but from the sound of it you have no idea what the music industry actually is
   • [20:46 on 19/04/09]
6. • MatthewRedStars
   • I know i'm not internet Gandhi but this is a totally interesting read except for the name calling...
   • [22:47 on 19/04/09]
7. • mike
   • That should be your status on here Matt!
     
     I think this whole business is a double-ended sword with which music fans are wielding at the very people they love, but those people can't make their minds up.
     
     I'm going to bed.
   • [23:03 on 19/04/09]
8. • Beerman
   • I think it's a double edged sword that some bands wield at their fans as well.
     
     Podge, I have answered your questions, you just didn't get my answers and I am not a fool, and I know just as many names to call you, so let's not go there.
     
     How can I explain to someone what music is, as opposed to a product? When I stare into a Van Gogh or listen to Skepticism or Beethoven, I don't see a picture in a frame of hear entertainment coming out of my speakers. If I had painted a Rembrandt I'd sooner burn it than see it sold like a tin of bake beans. Art is the spirit of man, it is in the ether and it cannot/should not be bought and sold. Bands have to decide if they are Art or Entertainment. If it's the latter, then they shouldn't whine over outlay, it's investment in the business and if it pays off, the band will make lots of money and be famous. The band is no different from any other self-employed group of businessmen. If it's the former than I'll do everything I can to support the artist.
     
     If you are going to treat music as a product then the musical composition is an attribute of the whole thing. It's entertainment. You'll also need a scene and the packaging has to appeal to your market audience. You're selling the benefits of the product, just as with a car, the design is but one aspect, Volvos were once in fashion, now they are not, the reliability is just as good. You'll need fashion/merchandise and marketing and loads of people in the audience to make whooping noises. To your fan your music is disposable, and possibly not the most import aspect of your product.
     
     Whilst you are thinking of some more names to call me, have a read of this, I'm not going to post the whole thing here becasue I can't be arsed, so forgive the link to another board.
     
     www.borninblood.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=6279
     
     Who are SD?
     
     
     [Edited by Beerman at 00:42 on 20/04/09]
   • [00:41 on 20/04/09]
9. • Ben
   • Beerman says:

     Who are SD?
     
     
     Sound Devastation Records, Chris who runs it posts here.
   • [08:22 on 20/04/09]
10. • Podge
    • so you are saying art should be free and you are willing to do anything to support them, except pay for their skills because paying for art is wrong. if an artist played a gig you had organised would you give them money for food and petrol? would this not be considered as paying for art? or would you expect that they should do it for free?
      
      you also say entertainment should be paid for by the band as its an investment in a product. their investment will be repaid by sales of their record. but people are not buying records, they are downloading them for free so their investment is lost.
      
      don't both these scenarios end up with you getting everything for free? that seems a little one sided and it also seems like you can justify taking anything for free by claiming you class it as art. maybe I should start to class fruit and veg as the farmer's art and then I too will not have to pay for anything. after all, they invested in the farm and put their product out, its only just that I share this product with other people. i have bought an orange from the farmer, now lets all take oranges from him, if they are good oranges we will tell our friends and maybe one day he will become the famous orange grower that everyone talks about and requests his products. or maybe he'll go out of business long before that time.
      
      you need to get it out of your head that a record label does nothing but sit in an ivory tower thinking up ways to make money. a record label provided many services. one of the largest is in effect as a financial loan. many bands do not have the funds to write, record, press, promote and tour themselves so they bring in some one who can help. if they were to go to a bank and ask for the money it would no doubt cost them a lot more and they would not get the added benefits of all the other stuff. this is not unusual, many industries have a middleman who helps them along.
      
      
      quote:

      To your fan your music is disposable, and possibly not the most import aspect of your product.
      
      this is totally backwards to me. how can some one be a fan but consider the music disposable? what you are talking about here (I suspect) is kids who tend to want to be part of a scene and wear the same shirts as their friends more than they enjoy the music. its not the fault of the band that their fans act that way.
      
      I've already read the thread on your forum and there are a couple of guys who talk some sense but then there are a couple of guys who use the term "the man" and "Industry Nazis" and clearly have no idea what they are talking about. typical example is the person who suggests that because NIN and Radiohead have managed to release records for free then anyone can do it. some one aught to point out that both of those bands already had a well established fan base and financial backing as well as media coverage through previously releasing records (via record labels) and so did not really need to make any money from these releases. the money that they make comes indirectly by keeping both bands in the news and people buying (not downloading) their back catalogue / tshirts, paying to see them tour the album and similar.
      
      with the rise of pirating (getting back on topic) you will see the rise of the bigger label as they stick to their old outdated ways and buy ut smaller labels for their back catalogues and more forward thinking ideas. you will see the demise of the mid sized and small label as they do not have the finance of the bigger labels and and bands will turn to releasing things them selves. as more and more bands release things them selves you will see the price of music rocket as they will expect they can command the same money as the mid to small labels but without the quality or control. you will also see a reduction in non native bands touring a no one will have money too invest in it and you will find bigger companies such as Amazon or myspace or apple making huge profits because they will invent something that allows the scattered free for all that is independent bands come together under one market place umbrella to maximize their sales.
      
      ultimately you will loose quality, loose variety, loose the live experience and still download for free things because some one else is still making money out of music even if its not the traditional record label.
    • [10:17 on 20/04/09]
11. • JenTheHen
    • Basically, the film and music industries have to adapt, which to a certain and slow extent they are doing (moving DVD releases closer to cinema releases, Spotify etc).
      
      Sitting and crying about it like Madonna and Metallica won't help.
    • [11:01 on 20/04/09]
12. • Marek
    • I don't download music illegally.
      
      Because I am a techtard and because I have seen the music industry at all levels implode in the last 5 years. It sucks generally for sure. I hope it can settle down and people can make some kind of living out of it or it will kill creativity, no doubt.
    • [11:13 on 20/04/09]
13. • J Parker
    • I don't download illegaly because technically, Im a fucking moron. However just because it's possible, doesn't make it right. Sex with chimps is possible, but it's not always done in a loving context.
      
      If you want music, you should pay (a small fee) for it. You don't expect Sherbert Dip Dabs for nothing do you!? DO YOU!!!!???
    • [11:17 on 20/04/09]
14. • Podge
    • J Parker says:

      You don't expect Sherbert Dip Dabs for nothing do you!? DO YOU!!!!???
      
      if only
    • [11:17 on 20/04/09]
15. • Podge
    • oh and the pirate bay boys will get off on appeal. not because they are right but because the Judge's justification will open up a whole load of crap about people not being responsible for their own actions and the government cant let that happen as it will lead to lots of issues they cant get out of.
    • [11:24 on 20/04/09]
16. • Tim Holehouse
    • 
    • [11:35 on 20/04/09]
17. • WickedWesticle
    • Podge says:

      with the rise of pirating (getting back on topic) you will see the rise of the bigger label as they stick to their old outdated ways and buy ut smaller labels for their back catalogues and more forward thinking ideas. you will see the demise of the mid sized and small label as they do not have the finance of the bigger labels and and bands will turn to releasing things them selves. as more and more bands release things them selves you will see the price of music rocket as they will expect they can command the same money as the mid to small labels but without the quality or control. you will also see a reduction in non native bands touring a no one will have money too invest in it and you will find bigger companies such as Amazon or myspace or apple making huge profits because they will invent something that allows the scattered free for all that is independent bands come together under one market place umbrella to maximize their sales.
      
      ultimately you will loose quality, loose variety, loose the live experience and still download for free things because some one else is still making money out of music even if its not the traditional record label.
      
      
      I'm not sure I agree with this Podge, especially the last paragraph. It may just be wishfull thinking on my part as I don't have the experience of properly releasing records or running a label but I'd like to think that what we have gained over the last few years is an enormous increase in variety and quality.
      
      Yeah there's a lot more crap but there's also a lot more good stuff too. Much of this I have been exposed to because I stole it (have to be honest here - it is stealing) through downloading. Part of the problem is the enormous increase in variety and the fact that I couldn't possibly buy all the stuff I like the sound of so somewhere along the way I have to decide whether I listen to a band legally or not.
      
      I can see your point with us losing the live experience but there is another side to that coin in that if all recording music was easily available to hear/stream/whatever then music goes back to being ALL about the live experience (like it was before people like Edison invented record players).
      
      The change from physical to digital is not the same as the change from tape to CD and the fans, artists, label and industry need to adapt.
      
      I understand your frustration at the file sharing blogs that don't link to your label or your artists - that is rubbish of them to do so. I doubt those two hundred people would have bought the CD or possible even heard of the band without that blog though. I think a better resolution would have been to slap the blog on the wrist and ask them to re post with a link to your label, the band, their last.fm page and so on.
    • [11:59 on 20/04/09]
18. • Catacomb Records
    • I don't know the first thing about downloading... wouldn't know where to go and the only mp3s I have are copied from my existing record collection so that I can listen to like 60 (slight exaggeration!!) albums in my car!!
      
      My boss asked me to download some Billy Joel track for a presentation he was doing... I went to the first place I found, downloaded it, and the whole server came crashing down with a virus I had caught!! Excellent!!!
      
      
      [Edited by Catacomb Records at 13:01 on 20/04/09]
    • [13:00 on 20/04/09]
19. • Podge
    • WickedWesticle says:

      I'd like to think that what we have gained over the last few years is an enormous increase in variety and quality.
      
      please explain how pirating has contributed to this? i agree that there is an increase but i cannot see any direct correlation.
      
      
      WickedWesticle says:

      Yeah there's a lot more crap but there's also a lot more good stuff too. Much of this I have been exposed to because I stole it (have to be honest here - it is stealing) through downloading. Part of the problem is the enormous increase in variety and the fact that I couldn't possibly buy all the stuff I like the sound of so somewhere along the way I have to decide whether I listen to a band legally or not.
      
      
      see this is the big issue right here. i'm glad that you admit it is stealing, but I don't get to read anywhere near the amount I would like to but you don't see me floating round waterstones nabbing books. the reason being is because A) its wrong and B) because i'm likely to get done for it. if i'm on the internet i'm unlikely to get found out and therefore its seen as being OK.
      
      
      WickedWesticle says:

      I can see your point with us losing the live experience but there is another side to that coin in that if all recording music was easily available to hear/stream/whatever then music goes back to being ALL about the live experience (like it was before people like Edison invented record players).
      
      
      but music is free to anyone who wants to download stuff and has a smidgen of technical know how yet we have all seen live shows decline year on year. and if bands can only make money from live shows then their fee is going to go up and the door price is going to go up
      
      
      WickedWesticle says:

      The change from physical to digital is not the same as the change from tape to CD and the fans, artists, label and industry need to adapt.
      
      
      very true.
      
      
      WickedWesticle says:

      I understand your frustration at the file sharing blogs that don't link to your label or your artists - that is rubbish of them to do so. I doubt those two hundred people would have bought the CD or possible even heard of the band without that blog though. I think a better resolution would have been to slap the blog on the wrist and ask them to re post with a link to your label, the band, their last.fm page and so on.
      
      
      i also doubt that the 200 people would have bought it, but maybe some would, even 1 in 100 would have been nice. there was a time when people would support new talent. not any more. the blog owner had no interest in reposting with links because I was "the man" and I owned a record label and therefore I was a money grabber who only saw bands as profit. I'll see if I can find the emails though I may have deleted them to save me from being enraged
    • [13:44 on 20/04/09]
20. • WickedWesticle
    • Podge says:

      WickedWesticle says:

      I'd like to think that what we have gained over the last few years is an enormous increase in variety and quality.

      
      

      Podge says:

      please explain how pirating has contributed to this? i agree that there is an increase but i cannot see any direct correlation.

      
      
      Good point, I was a little off topic there.
      
      

      WickedWesticle says:

      Yeah there's a lot more crap but there's also a lot more good stuff too. Much of this I have been exposed to because I stole it (have to be honest here - it is stealing) through downloading. Part of the problem is the enormous increase in variety and the fact that I couldn't possibly buy all the stuff I like the sound of so somewhere along the way I have to decide whether I listen to a band legally or not.

      
      
      

      Podge says:

      see this is the big issue right here. i'm glad that you admit it is stealing, but I don't get to read anywhere near the amount I would like to but you don't see me floating round waterstones nabbing books. the reason being is because A) its wrong and B) because i'm likely to get done for it. if i'm on the internet i'm unlikely to get found out and therefore its seen as being OK.

      
      
      This relates to my point about the change to digital from physical. Current technology means that most music can be shared/copied across the entire world and there really isn't that much that you or I can do about it other than work with it. It may be wrong to at the moment but it's also impossible to restrict or control the use (listening/sharing etc) of digital files. DRM is bad, Watermarking is bad. With this in mind the musicians and labels (especially the underground stuff) should pre empt where the industry is moving to and provide their content in all formats; Allow fans to buy physical and digital and also allow them to stream entire releases through as many online systems as possible. That way the labels and artists can manage their content themselves and ensure the fans are going to their websites/online profiles to check out their music. If those fans that are happy downloading knew they could listen to all the stuff online anyway then it may stop them from downloading and it would generate online plays (and therefore exposure with sites like Last.fm) for the artists.
      
      

      WickedWesticle says:

      I can see your point with us losing the live experience but there is another side to that coin in that if all recording music was easily available to hear/stream/whatever then music goes back to being ALL about the live experience (like it was before people like Edison invented record players).

      
      
      

      Podge says:

      but music is free to anyone who wants to download stuff and has a smidgen of technical know how yet we have all seen live shows decline year on year. and if bands can only make money from live shows then their fee is going to go up and the door price is going to go up

      
      
      PS3s and XBoxes have a lot to answer for with the decline in live show attendence but so does the doom/whatever scene itself. I mean bands and promoters here. It's disorganised, badly publisiced, badly promoted and disconnected. Social media sites are abused and rarely do bands coordinate gig promotion.
      
      There are other ways to make money - merchandise, royalties through online plays (ReverbNation, Last.fm etc.), sync licencing (Pump Audio) and so on. Live gigs for small bands rarely pay well so bands must look for alternative ways of making money.
      
      

      WickedWesticle says:

      The change from physical to digital is not the same as the change from tape to CD and the fans, artists, label and industry need to adapt.

      
      
      

      Podge says:

      very true.

      
      
      

      WickedWesticle says:

      I understand your frustration at the file sharing blogs that don't link to your label or your artists - that is rubbish of them to do so. I doubt those two hundred people would have bought the CD or possible even heard of the band without that blog though. I think a better resolution would have been to slap the blog on the wrist and ask them to re post with a link to your label, the band, their last.fm page and so on.

      
      
      

      Podge says:

      i also doubt that the 200 people would have bought it, but maybe some would, even 1 in 100 would have been nice. there was a time when people would support new talent. not any more. the blog owner had no interest in reposting with links because I was "the man" and I owned a record label and therefore I was a money grabber who only saw bands as profit. I'll see if I can find the emails though I may have deleted them to save me from being enraged

      
      
      Sounds like the guy's a bit of a tool with no knowledge of what a label like yours does.
    • [14:57 on 20/04/09]

Forums - Music Discussion and Promotion - They're really cracking down on them pirates